Rick
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Post by Rick on Oct 29, 2016 18:55:49 GMT -7
Thanks for clarifying a few things for me, Ref. I wasn't sure what the college and pro rule books said about the pass interference rule, compared to the high school rule.
I like your explanations. I don't recall seeing the ball-slapping thing before.
I'd also like to chat with you further on this sometime, just for my own information. If you'd be willing, please send me a PM.
Rick Hassler
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Post by Mr. Pitch on Oct 29, 2016 19:12:59 GMT -7
Ref has several inaccuracies in his explanation. I do agree with the part about the pass interference. But neither of the 2 officials in position made that call. Also, it has been deemed impossible to swipe a ball away without also being offsides yourself. Therefore, not allowed under any rule of which I am aware. This was explained to me by an official today. I'm not sure about the uncatchable ball in your federation rules. We operate under NCAA rules which definitely does recognize an uncatchable ball. And lastly, you can recognize the bias in Joby's voice. I think he will admit that. He's proud to be where he's from. But if Ref can recognize bias in Joby without recognizing bias in a fellow crew of officials......
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Post by Mr. Pitch on Oct 29, 2016 19:42:43 GMT -7
The defense can not interfere or impede the snapping of the ball.
As it was explained to me this afternoon.
NFHS. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.
Section 1, Art 3. A snap shall, if elected, put the ball in play when a free kick is not specified.
Art 6. The ball remains dead and a down is not begun if a snap or free kick is attempted before the ball is ready for play, or there is an illegal snap, other snap infraction or a dead-ball foul occurs.
The way I interpret this ruling is in a legal snap the center must move the ball backwards AND "release" it! After the release of the ball, the clock starts and you have a live ball. If the center doesn't release the ball, you have a false start. If the defense slaps the ball from the center's hand(s) before the snap, then you have a dead ball foul, delay of game or encroachment (hand entered the neutral zone before the snap--remember the center must release the ball before it is a legal snap.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 19:45:57 GMT -7
Ref has several inaccuracies in his explanation. I do agree with the part about the pass interference. But neither of the 2 officials in position made that call. Also, it has been deemed impossible to swipe a ball away without also being offsides yourself. Therefore, not allowed under any rule of which I am aware. This was explained to me by an official today. I'm not sure about the uncatchable ball in your federation rules. We operate under NCAA rules which definitely does recognize an uncatchable ball. And lastly, you can recognize the bias in Joby's voice. I think he will admit that. He's proud to be where he's from. But if Ref can recognize bias in Joby without recognizing bias in a fellow crew of officials...... Mrpitch, I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you, but you claim what I stated was inaccurate, without anything factual to support your claim. As you yourself stated, Texas plays under NCAA rules. I'm familiar with both codes, as I officiate at both levels. It does not appear you can claim the same. I can assure you that NFHS code does not prohibit the ball swipe, as you refer to it, while NCAA does. You claim this action was deemed to be impossible, but offer nothing to support this claim. If the official you spoke with is a Texas official, of course he will state that is not possible, because it is illegal under NCAA rules, and as a result, also in Texas. However, it is not illegal under NFHS. We actually discussed this play as a part of my college crew's pregame today. You state that neither of the officials in position made the DPI call last night. Who do you believe should have made the call vs who actually made the call? Why do you believe this to be the case? Do you agree with the call, or just my explanation? You call me out for not recognizing the bias in a group of officials... but is your claim of their bias colored by what you wanted to see? What evidence of bias do you believe the crew demonstrated?
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Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 19:52:18 GMT -7
ref - according to what I read about NFHS rules, it states this: From my understanding, the defense cannot interfere or impede the snap. The snap consists of the center moving the ball and it coming out of his hands. According to these rules, it would be impossible for someone to do what Goddard was trying to do. Would love to hear you interpret this rule.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 19:53:00 GMT -7
The defense can not interfere or impede the snapping of the ball. As it was explained to me this afternoon. NFHS. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman. Section 1, Art 3. A snap shall, if elected, put the ball in play when a free kick is not specified. Art 6. The ball remains dead and a down is not begun if a snap or free kick is attempted before the ball is ready for play, or there is an illegal snap, other snap infraction or a dead-ball foul occurs. The way I interpret this ruling is in a legal snap the center must move the ball backwards AND "release" it! After the release of the ball, the clock starts and you have a live ball. If the center doesn't release the ball, you have a false start. If the defense slaps the ball from the center's hand(s) before the snap, then you have a dead ball foul, delay of game or encroachment (hand entered the neutral zone before the snap--remember the center must release the ball before it is a legal snap. You are reading something into this rule that is not there. The interpretation you make is true of the NCAA code, but the key to the NFHS code is actually in the first sentence of the rule: "NFHS. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment." Once snap begins (when the snapper first moves the ball) , the defense can attempt a play on it. The absence of a prohibition of this action means it is allowed. This is why I explained the part about officials not making up rules, but instead enforcing the rules as they are written, in my first post. It's also why I explained that there is a process to get the rules changed.
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Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 19:58:40 GMT -7
ref - The absence of something doesn't mean it is allowed. Even if that were the case, we clearly see the rule state
THE DEFENSE CAN NOT INTERFERE OR IMPEDE THE SNAPPING OF THE BALL.
We know what interfere and impede mean, so we must take a look of what constitutes a snap. We have a definition that states the snap BEGINS when the snapper first moves the ball (so, in other words, it isn't a complete snap...just the beginning) and it goes on to state the rest which says the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper. So, the snap is the total sum of everything described. You cannot interfere or impede that. It really is pretty clear what constitutes a snap and what isn't allowed.
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Post by Mr. Pitch on Oct 29, 2016 20:00:31 GMT -7
I agree that it was pass interference, and for the reason you stated. I coach in Texas but am somewhat familiar with the rules in other states. Not really a topic for discussion. I can recognize bad and good officiating. I know it is poor officiating to make calls when other officials are closer to the play than you are. I also have no desire to get into a pissing match with you. But I will call into question your attack on the radio announcer when you seem to lack judgement on what you got on here for in the first place. There has been so many distasteful posts on here it really threatens the integrity of this board if you are unwilling to say who you are. So really, I can show other parts of the rulebook if I need to but this will be the last reference from me if you aren't going to say who you are. I get it about your reasons for not saying, but if you can't own your words, just keep them.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 20:04:50 GMT -7
Let me also clarify that, just because the rule allows it, doesn't mean I as an official have to like it. I don't. I think it's a non-football play that has no place in football at any level. But I still have to enforce the rules as they are written.
Unfortunately, I as an official am not in a place to change the rule. The NFHS considers rules changes every year. Why they haven't brought the NFHS code into line with the NCAA in this regard is beyond me.
As I previously stated, officials are charged with enforcing the rules as they are written. Enforcing rules that aren't in the code is a good way to get myself downgraded or suspended.
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Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 20:07:01 GMT -7
ref - the player interfered with the snap which is a violation. Toss the laundry, it's your job.
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Post by Mr. Pitch on Oct 29, 2016 20:07:46 GMT -7
Well let me go back on my words and include this then Ref which should put an end to your defense of the rule as you see it.
there is: 9-9-1 "A player or nonplayer or person(s) not subject to the rules shall not hinder play by an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage."
Your above post makes perfect sense by the way.
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Post by Agent Orange on Oct 29, 2016 20:10:35 GMT -7
Speaking as a fan, I think we get frustrated our coaches don't get irate and get in someones face in the heat of the moment, to the common person it would seem they don't care, I know that's not the case but they are taught I believe to keep their composure at all times out on the field, so many eyes watching you. Hopefully they take a hard look at this ruling about slapping the ball, this isn't the first time and it won't be the last unless something definite comes from the NMAA on it. Win or lose it's not worth all the drama it's caused. I think if the pros and college don't allow it neither should we, nip it in the butt now. Cooper Henderson has been around a long time and he's a sharp man and I'm sure his wisdom passed on to Rex, it's a teaching experience, sometimes things don't go your way and life ain't always fair, but you got to get back up and dust yourself off and get ready for the next one. Winning that game last night was not the Goal for this season, it's bringing the state title back for a 3rd straight time and they still have a great opportunity to achieve that, so refocus and get ready to go. I'm excited, we got Roswell, Goddard, Artesia, throw in St. Pius they were tough last year, Alamo and Los Lunas the early playoff rounds might see some good competition for once. just my random rambling thoughts.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 20:17:37 GMT -7
I agree that it was pass interference, and for the reason you stated. I coach in Texas but am somewhat familiar with the rules in other states. Not really a topic for discussion. I can recognize bad and good officiating. I know it is poor officiating to make calls when other officials are closer to the play than you are. I also have no desire to get into a pissing match with you. But I will call into question your attack on the radio announcer when you seem to lack judgement on what you got on here for in the first place. There has been so many distasteful posts on here it really threatens the integrity of this board if you are unwilling to say who you are. So really, I can show other parts of the rulebook if I need to but this will be the last reference from me if you aren't going to say who you are. I get it about your reasons for not saying, but if you can't own your words, just keep them. I'm not sure why you're attacking me, although I admit I expected it. I'm not going to put my identity on here because I don't feel it's germane to this discussion, but if you feel you need to know that badly who I am, is be happy to send you an email, and to tell you who I am and why I don't feel that putting my name on here is a good idea. Just tell me what email you want me to send it to. I'm sorry if you felt I was attacking a radio announcer. I stated my wish that he educate himself a little more thoroughly on the game which he is announcing. Finally, with regard to the officials who made the DPI call, you didn't really answer my questions. That said, officials have keys based on formations. I sometimes have to make calls that another official is closer to simply because the player is my key, and the officials closer to the contact are looking at their own keys. You may feel it doesn't look correct, but that doesn't mean it is incorrect. I made a conscious decision to enter into this discussion with the hope of providing a different perspective. I'm not sorry that I chose to do so, but I'm sorry I've allowed myself to be pulled into a "pissing match. "
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Post by Mr. Pitch on Oct 29, 2016 20:20:52 GMT -7
Yep, you, and I, shoulda stayed out of it
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Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 20:22:27 GMT -7
ref - I enjoy a healthy debate but have not seen you reply to any of my statements. I offered the rules, its definitions and how they pertained to the play(s) in question. Because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation doesn't mean it is a pissing match.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 20:23:32 GMT -7
ref - The absence of something doesn't mean it is allowed. Even if that were the case, we clearly see the rule state THE DEFENSE CAN NOT INTERFERE OR IMPEDE THE SNAPPING OF THE BALL. We know what interfere and impede mean, so we must take a look of what constitutes a snap. We have a definition that states the snap BEGINS when the snapper first moves the ball (so, in other words, it isn't a complete snap...just the beginning) and it goes on to state the rest which says the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper. So, the snap is the total sum of everything described. You cannot interfere or impede that. It really is pretty clear what constitutes a snap and what isn't allowed. Erik, this has been interpreted by the NFHS to mean that the defense cannot make contact with the ball prior to the start of the snap. Once the snap starts, it's fair game. Again, this is a statement of fact. Until the rule or the interpretation by the NFHS is changed, I am not free to make a different interpretation as an official.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 20:28:00 GMT -7
ref - I enjoy a healthy debate but have not seen you reply to any of my statements. I offered the rules, its definitions and how they pertained to the play(s) in question. Because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation doesn't mean it is a pissing match. I replied to your post both directly and indirectly. I'm sorry you disagree with the way the high school rule is interpreted, but it is what it is. I was only repeating Mr. Pitch's description of the discussion, and is point out that both you and he might disagree with the NFHS interpretation of this rule, but it is what it is. Just to reiterate, however, this isn't my interpretation of the rule. It's the NFHS interpretation.
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Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 20:34:49 GMT -7
Thanks for clarifying a few things for me, Ref. I wasn't sure what the college and pro rule books said about the pass interference rule, compared to the high school rule.
I like your explanations. I don't recall seeing the ball-slapping thing before.
I'd also like to chat with you further on this sometime, just for my own information. If you'd be willing, please send me a PM.
Rick Hassler
Rick, sorry I didn't respond earlier. I'd be happy to chat with you further on this, but I'm logged in as a guest, so I can't send PMs. Is there am email address you'd be comfortable putting on here that I can contact you at?
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Post by Mr. Pitch on Oct 29, 2016 20:37:24 GMT -7
Agent Orange wants us to end this part of the thread, I can tell by his last post so I will respect that, however I think we just have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 20:37:35 GMT -7
It is illegal to swipe at the ball. As the rule is written, the defense cannot interfere with the snap. The snap is also defined. Just the movement of the ball does not constitute a snap, only the beginning. Just as a blueprint for a house is not a house, only the beginning. Unless you are privy to some other information that no one else here has, you are simply in error in your interpretation. I would love to see something that says something that is plainly illegal is legal, otherwise you are making claims without factual support.
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