|
Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 20:41:46 GMT -7
Can you show me the interpretation? I did have to take summer school for English one year so correct me if I'm wrong but I think when a rule says you "cannot interfere with the snapping of the ball", I don't see "prior" or "before". (will snap - future or prior, snap/snapping - present, snapped - past or after) it probably means "snapping of the ball"
|
|
|
Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 20:49:11 GMT -7
Can you show me the interpretation? I did have to take summer school for English one year so correct me if I'm wrong but I think when a rule says you "cannot interfere with the snapping of the ball", I don't see "prior" or "before". (will snap - future or prior, snap/snapping - present, snapped - past or after) it probably means "snapping of the ball" Coming up. You'll have to give me a few minutes to get it typed up.
|
|
Ike
pound puppy
Posts: 11
|
Post by Ike on Oct 29, 2016 20:56:02 GMT -7
I think we can all suspect to disagree on this topic as the rule is not specific to the definition of snapping the ball, therefore it will be interpreted differently by different people. Definitely believe the rule needs to be changed and specified by the NHFS this summer to prevent ball swiping. I personally think it's a bush league move. You know one of those unwritten rules that's been around, however, some people's approach is "if it's allowed then do it". Even if the integrity of the game is questioned. So please, as someone who enjoys the updated comments and information on Bulldog football and other football topic, let's move on. Heathy debate or not, we're all not gonna agree on this one. IMO if Goddard wins Friday 1 St Pius 2 Goddard 3 Artesia 4 Belen or Alamogordo If Roswell wins 1. St Pius 2 Artesia 3 Goddard 4 Roswell Although I totally disagree with the approach I think St Pius gets 1 seed cause of they're 9-1 record
|
|
|
Post by bdogfan on Oct 29, 2016 20:59:19 GMT -7
I think you men have just been communicating with a "troll". I have done some reading of the rule and I would say I agree with Erik. I was thinking today, why does NM have difficulty with keeping referees? I know my brother in law was a referee for quite sometime and he tells me it is a tough job and the pay sucks. The wear and tear of your vehicle and etc is not worth the trouble. So, what happens? there is a high turn over and too often the cream of crop just resigns. What's left? people who officiated the Goddard/Artesia game. I hope in the play offs the teams that the 'dogs play get more of the "cream of the crop". The kids throughout the state deserve the "best". Go 'dogs beat the Lovington Wildcats. Hopefully the team get a crew that knows the rules and follows them. '
|
|
|
Post by bdogfan on Oct 29, 2016 21:02:05 GMT -7
I think Roswell will win Friday with a good referee crew that knows what they are doing and Roswell high playing like they know how, they will beat Goddard.
|
|
|
Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 21:09:42 GMT -7
It is illegal to swipe at the ball. As the rule is written, the defense cannot interfere with the snap. The snap is also defined. Just the movement of the ball does not constitute a snap, only the beginning. Just as a blueprint for a house is not a house, only the beginning. Unless you are privy to some other information that no one else here has, you are simply in error in your interpretation. I would love to see something that says something that is plainly illegal is legal, otherwise you are making claims without factual support. AO, I apologize as I know you're wanting this discussion to end. Hopefully this will be the end of it. Thank you for your patience. Erik, the following is found on pages 190-191 of the book, "Football Rule Differences: NFHS & NCAA Rules Compared 2015." This publication is produced annually as a joint effort by Referee Magazine and the National Association of Sports Officials (NASO). I realize this book is the 2015 edition, but the rule has not changed this year. You can purchase the book here for $17.95. As you can see, it's not something only I am privy to. In the interest of time, I'm only going to copy the NFHS references, and I'm doing so verbatim from my book. This book is a helpful tool in understanding rules differences between the NFHS and NCAA codes. Rule 7.31. SNAP The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball: NFHS: Legally other than in adjustment. The snap must touch a back or the ground before it touches a team A lineman. The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player (2-40-2, 2-40-3). Also, for a snap to be legal, it must first touch the ground or a back before touching a team A lineman. An illegal snap is a dead ball foul (2-40-2, 7-1-4). PLAY 1: After the referee whistles the ready, all team A players move to the line and are set. A split second after center A5 legally moves the ball to snap it, B2 times the snap perfectly as he reaches in and knocks away the ball from A5. The ball hits the ground and B6 recovers. RULING 1: NFHS: Once A5 legally moves the ball as part of the snap, it is legal for team B players to touch the ball. Result: No foul, team B takes over. Hopefully this provides the clarification you are asking for.
|
|
|
Post by ref on Oct 29, 2016 21:17:50 GMT -7
I think you men have just been communicating with a "troll". I have done some reading of the rule and I would say I agree with Erik. I was thinking today, why does NM have difficulty with keeping referees? I know my brother in law was a referee for quite sometime and he tells me it is a tough job and the pay sucks. The wear and tear of your vehicle and etc is not worth the trouble. So, what happens? there is a high turn over and too often the cream of crop just resigns. What's left? people who officiated the Goddard/Artesia game. I hope in the play offs the teams that the 'dogs play get more of the "cream of the crop". The kids throughout the state deserve the "best". Go 'dogs beat the Lovington Wildcats. Hopefully the team get a crew that knows the rules and follows them. ' bdogfan, I assure you I am not a "troll." I am a graduate of Artesia High, and am also a high school and college football referee. I'll make you the same offer I've made to others. If you would like, I will happily send you an email with my bio and an explanation of why I don't want to put my name out there. I would agree, the reasons you stated are some of many that prevent not only NM but most states from attracting and keeping officials. I would add that the harassment from fans who think they know everything about the game and question an official's every judgment call also factor in. That said, I do not know where the officials from Friday's game were from, but I highly doubt that the officials assigned were anything less than the best in their association. That game has a reputation for being intense, and an assigner is not going to send officials who are not ready for the level of competition to that game. I agree, the kids across the nation deserve the best. I strive to be at my best every time I step on the field.
|
|
|
Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2016 23:01:36 GMT -7
Thanks for the clarification ref. It's definitely not something in the rule book. My only question now is if the book you referenced is a guide (aka not official) or is it another rule book or official supplement to the actual rule book. It clearly does allow what goddard was doing but directly opposes what's actually written in the rule book. Where i work, we have something similar...a contract and a supplement to the contract. If there is conflict then it's supposed to resort back to the original contract. Of course, that may not be the case here.
I can live with a bad unintentional call...even though slowing down the video you can see the defense was well past the neutral zone before the ball was snapped, the refs don't have the luxury of replay and slow motion. Although it's a bad call, it's definitely well within human error.
I can tell you are no troll either, hence I welcome to discussion/debate. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a lot of homers here that are quick to dismiss someone if their thinking doesn't align with theirs. Thanks for the info
|
|
|
Post by bulldogbooster45 on Oct 29, 2016 23:10:36 GMT -7
I personally think the ruling is absolut BS! If this is the case Granger should swipe at the ball every damn play from here on out.
If people don't like it, then that is exactly why it is BS! Because it's not football. It's BS!
|
|
|
Post by GoDogs on Oct 29, 2016 23:10:49 GMT -7
|
|
Indisputable Evidence
Guest
|
Post by Indisputable Evidence on Oct 30, 2016 2:13:46 GMT -7
Offside The center's elbow has not moved. The ball has not moved. The defensive player's hand is past the line. Offside.
|
|
|
Post by sevenjrs on Oct 30, 2016 2:29:33 GMT -7
Well,,,I for one appreciate Ref's interpretation of the rules,,and like most diehard football fans from pee wee to NFL, Artesia fans are like fans everywhere, Nobody likes losing a game even when we get defeated in a well played game. Losing a game due to the "Bush League" tactics used by goddard coaches just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Then, the referees allowing these questionable plays to happen, not once,,but three times makes for these type of discussions. BUT,,,contrary to what some people think, that ONLY the coaches or administrators can petition NMAA for rules changes or clarifications,,there is something high school football fans CAN, AND SHOULD DO, is take the time to send Mr. Dusty Young an Email at NMAA stating your concerns about this method of playing the game that places disturbing and glaring focus on the integrity of the coaches, the referees and the game. When Dusty receives enough Emails protesting this lack of rules interpretations, I am sure he will act to bring this matter to the NMAA board to get the rule changed or at least clarified. We should NEVER remain quiet about rules interpretations or lack of, simply because NMAA is having trouble keeping referees,,,maybe they need to raise the pay rates to attract more qualified officials. Dusty Young====dusty@nmact.org===505-923-3268 Dr. Crit Caton===cdcaton@bulldogs.org
|
|
|
Post by ref on Oct 30, 2016 5:40:23 GMT -7
Thanks for the clarification ref. It's definitely not something in the rule book. My only question now is if the book you referenced is a guide (aka not official) or is it another rule book or official supplement to the actual rule book. It clearly does allow what goddard was doing but directly opposes what's actually written in the rule book. Where i work, we have something similar...a contract and a supplement to the contract. If there is conflict then it's supposed to resort back to the original contract. Of course, that may not be the case here. I can live with a bad unintentional call...even though slowing down the video you can see the defense was well past the neutral zone before the ball was snapped, the refs don't have the luxury of replay and slow motion. Although it's a bad call, it's definitely well within human error. I can tell you are no troll either, hence I welcome to discussion/debate. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a lot of homers here that are quick to dismiss someone if their thinking doesn't align with theirs. Thanks for the info Erik, this is a case book. It is not a supplement in that it does not have any new content. It addresses specific plays and the how they are to be enforced based on the language of the rule. NASO and the NFHS work together in order to ensure that these cases contain accurate interpretations to clarify specific situations. This is why I was able to provide you with a verbatim example of a play that occurred on Friday night. I'm not debating the merits of the call, as I have not seen any video directly down the line and I said earlier that I wouldn't address the referees' judgment. That is a task for their assigning secretary. I'm just providing information to explain why the call could have been correct. In college, we'd rule that the call stands as there isn't any indisputable evidence to overturn the call. As you stated, there is a human element to this game. One of my biggest frustrations as an official is hearing fans make off-key negative remarks towards me as I leave a game about a specific call when they clearly don't recognize that there are differences between various rules codes. They make comments about an NFL rule that has nothing to do with high school rules, etc. and are usually very misinformed. I wanted to provide you with the information that's available so that you wouldn't sound like the ignorant morons I had to deal with on Friday night, whose team lost 61-13 (and of course it was our fault). Artesia is better than that.
|
|
|
Post by ref on Oct 30, 2016 5:48:59 GMT -7
Well,,,I for one appreciate Ref's interpretation of the rules,,and like most diehard football fans from pee wee to NFL, Artesia fans are like fans everywhere, Nobody likes losing a game even when we get defeated in a well played game. Losing a game due to the "Bush League" tactics used by goddard coaches just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Then, the referees allowing these questionable plays to happen, not once,,but three times makes for these type of discussions. BUT,,,contrary to what some people think, that ONLY the coaches or administrators can petition NMAA for rules changes or clarifications,,there is something high school football fans CAN, AND SHOULD DO, is take the time to send Mr. Dusty Young an Email at NMAA stating your concerns about this method of playing the game that places disturbing and glaring focus on the integrity of the coaches, the referees and the game. When Dusty receives enough Emails protesting this lack of rules interpretations, I am sure he will act to bring this matter to the NMAA board to get the rule changed or at least clarified. We should NEVER remain quiet about rules interpretations or lack of, simply because NMAA is having trouble keeping referees,,,maybe they need to raise the pay rates to attract more qualified officials. Dusty Young====dusty@nmact.org===505-923-3268 Dr. Crit Caton===cdcaton@bulldogs.org sevenjrs, thanks for the kind words. As I mentioned before, I agree that this play is bush league, and I don't particularly care for it. I want to see Artesia be successful as well, and I remember how losses taste. I also understand the disappointment in the way the game was decided, but I cannot blame the officials for incorrect rules enforcement because they enforced the rule correctly. Thankfully (or sadly, in Artesia's case), this isn't a play that occurs often enough that the NFHS has felt the need to address it yet. This means that I probably won't see it in any of my remaining games this year. That said, there are several ways to petition for rules changes. Asking referees to come up with their own interpretation for the rules is one of the ways that won't work. That said, I hope this case causes the NFHS to consider a rules change, because that would be one less rules discrepancy I'd have to worry about between my Friday night and Saturday games.
|
|
|
Post by Delta9Bulldawg on Oct 30, 2016 6:46:04 GMT -7
I only had to view this once to see that Goddard was clearly offside no matter what. Artesia got as they say "Home towned" by the officiating crew. If you play Goddard again just kick their asses!
|
|
|
Post by Charliedog on Oct 30, 2016 6:48:57 GMT -7
This whole episode reminds me of what TW Harvey would tell me on many nights after getting many bad calls from an Officiating crew. "When I retire, I am going to Africa to shoot zebras" From what I understand Henderson has contacted the NMAA and is sending film. They will finally rule if this is legal or not. They will not change the results of the game and I don't think they should. I do think they need to decide if legal or not. From what I saw of all the plays I am wondering why the D was not called for encroachment on each and every pre-snap
|
|
|
Post by Watching in Canada on Oct 30, 2016 6:54:43 GMT -7
Artesia - In the years to come, the score will be forgotten and all anyone will remember is your teams class at the end of the game.
|
|
|
Post by sevenjrs on Oct 30, 2016 7:26:20 GMT -7
"" They will not change the results of the game and I don't think they should. "" I agree NMAA "probably" will not change the results of the game,,,but I don't agree that they shouldn't. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that any person sitting in that stadium at the 31 second mark KNEW what the final outcome was going to be. I am glad to hear that coach Henderson has contacted NMAA AND he should!!!! I also hope the goddard coach is publicly chastized for teaching his players such shoddy sportsmanship,,!! I just finished sending my Email to Dusty Young with Cc to Crit Caton and hope many others will do likewise. NMAA is fixing to have a huge mess on their hands with other teams doing this, quite possibly this coming friday, if they try to sweep this under the rug.
|
|
|
Post by guest69 on Oct 30, 2016 8:28:31 GMT -7
This video is blowing up all over the internet. Just wanted to chime in and say I have never seen the class and sportsmanship shown by Artesia. Even through it all you boys showed class. I don't even know where your school or town is, but you rock.
|
|
|
Post by sevenjrs on Oct 30, 2016 9:03:18 GMT -7
While I understand the pride of the Bulldog legacy, I was dismayed to hear the way the play-by-play is being announced. I appreciate Joby’s enthusiasm for the game, and I realize that his job is to broadcast the game through orange colored glasses, but I wish he would take the time to open the rule book and understand the rule enforcement of common penalties. I also wish he would learn the referee’s signals or at least have a signal chart in front of him so he can accurately broadcast the game. I find it difficult to take him seriously when he fails to correctly interpret not only the signal (failure to wear equipment vs. illegal formation) but also the enforcement (live ball vs. dead ball) of the foul on Artesia after the interception late in the 4th quarter. If he would take the time to understand the rules and appreciate the differences between what happens on Friday nights and what everyone sees on TV on Saturdays and Sundays, he would be a better announcer.
I just HAD to copy this as I could NOT get the Artesia station on my little transister radio at the game,,,,,LOL,,,and the only station I could pick up was the roswell station,,,,,and if you thought Joby was excited and upset,,you should have listened to the roswell announcers,,,they were just a heartbeat away from callin the refs them choice 10 dollar cusswords and,,,,they were even less versed bout the rules,,,and they admitted it a few times,,,,LOL I AM glad to see all the traffic on social media,,,that helps our case.
|
|